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Corona shot

Fraser

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A review with further reviews included.
And I'll throw in my ENT doctor who firmly believes masks don't prevent the Corona virus.
Let's look at these sources.

1.) You have an article from the Daily Mail; a famously terrible source for science. If you don't believe me, the opening from the wikipedia on the Daily mail reads: "The Daily Mail has been noted for its unreliability and widely criticized for its printing of sensationalist and inaccurate scare stories of science and medical research,[16][17][18][19] and for instances of plagiarism and copyright infringement." In fact, wikipedia won't allow editors to use the Daily Mail as a source; that's how bad it's science journalism is. The article you have posted from the Daily Mail is about a study on how masks don't stop you from getting Covid. Of course, the point of wearing a mask is prevent you from spreading it, not to prevent you from getting it, so it's a moot point regardless and the Daily Mail has taken the results of that study and misrepresented them in the fashion that's it's famous for.

The idea that this study proves masks don't work is easily debunked: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/11/danish-study-doesnt-prove-masks-dont-work-against-the-coronavirus/

And the people that made the study don't think that masks don't work. That's literally not their argument.

2.) You cite an article from The River Cities Reader, which is tabloid that I've never heard of, with the title "Masks Don't Work". It is written by climate change denier and disgraced (and fired) U of Ottawa Professor Denis Rancourt, a man who has a PhD in Physics and has no background or formal training in infectious disease, and who cannot get published in peer reviewed journals. As proof of his idea that the literature on masks indicate they don't work, Rancourt has a list of studies that include abstracts that say things like the following: There is some evidence to support the wearing of masks or respirators during illness to protect others, and public health emphasis on mask wearing during illness may help to reduce influenza virus transmission. There are fewer data to support the use of masks or respirators to prevent becoming infected. So, basically, the conclusion of this study being used as "evidence" in this article about how masks don't work is that, yes, actually, masks do work. That article also cites studies that are simply comparing N95 versus surgical masks as evidence that masks don't work, when the study in question doesn't make that claim at all; it just states that it can't find a difference between N95s and more common surgical masks. What is happening here? Did you look at the studies Rancourt was using as proof of his claims? It's genuinely bizarre.

And lo and behold, Rancourt has been busted for what took me five minutes of actually reading his sources to find:

When my colleague asked for scientific evidence to back this denial, the poster directed her to an article by Denis Rancourt, entitled “Masks Don’t Work.” And, indeed, Rancourt’s paper cited eight peer-reviewed essays, all from reputable journals. But when she actually clicked on the links provided, she found something very curious. None of the studies cited concluded what Rancourt says they did. For example, six of the eight studies measured the effectiveness of N95 respirators compared to surgical masks—not, as Rancourt implied, the effectiveness of wearing a mask vs. not wearing a mask.

Of the eight studies Rancourt cites, none of them provides any evidence to support his claim that masks do not work in reducing the spread of viruses, and several of them provide evidence that they do. And all that happens just in the first section of his article.


That's... pretty bad.

The full article debunking Rancourt is here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/logical-take/202007/yes-masks-work-debunking-the-pseudoscience

Serious scientific publications won't publish Rancourt's work anymore because he can't pass peer review, meaning other scientists find it too easy to find the same massive holes in his work that I just did. Just three hours ago, Denis Rancourt posted the following on Twitter: Regarding so called peer review, the only secret readers, unknown to the authors, should be after publication. Period. Peer review is establishment censorship by design. That's literally a quote from the physics PhD you are using as a source on the subject of infectious diseases that he just posted to Twitter. He's transparently a fraud.

3.) You've cited the WHO's outdated statement on masks from well over a year ago. When more data came in and masks became more readily available, the WHO changed its suggested policies because that's what scientists do. This is as easy as pointing to the current policy and the WHO's retraction of this former statement.

4.) You've gestured toward your ENT, for some reason. To be honest, this is a hard one to respond to, because I'm not sure what you're going for here.

Proof is there for all sides. Because different people have different views. Some experts are against face masks. They think they do nothing at all. Others are for them. Think their claim is it lowers the risk of infection to at least 50%. What about the other 50%? Bit like a toss of a coin. Heads you get Covid. Tails, you don't. Those studies were done in China and other Asian countries. Places were they wear face masks most of the time as a rule and have always done so. So the odds are the exact same both ways. So nobody actually wins.

Have been a few doctors here in Ireland who refused to give people the vaccine. Instead of been asked to explain why, they were struck off the medical list. Again medical experts with different opinions than others. You will never get everybody to agree 100% of the time. That has never happened with anything. This is no different at all.
And some people think the world is flat, that climate change isn't real and that evolution is a lie. They're wrong though. It's not a shrug your shoulders "who knows?!" kind of situation. It's also not "some experts think A and some experts think B", the overwhelming scientific consensus at the moment is that masks significantly help mitigate the spread of Covid.
 

Phillies Phan

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I'm guessing that, gestures to ambiguity aside, you'll be getting vaccinated if you haven't already.
Meant for Cuch not you Fraser. Darn technology - GBAN? I googled. A dialect of the Ivory Coast? Likely not the insult you intended. You should explain your insults for maximum effect.
 

ThankfulJen

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Fraser, don't know how this works but you are now.on ignore because I've never been fond of the self righteous sort and I'm definitely not here to read long, dull explanations on why you are a better.human being. I'm sure your mask wearing in all circumstances and in all space and time give you plenty of opportunities in virtual signaling.
 

Fraser

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Fraser, don't know how this works but you are now.on ignore because I've never been fond of the self righteous sort and I'm definitely not here to read long, dull explanations on why you are a better.human being. I'm sure your mask wearing in all circumstances and in all space and time give you plenty of opportunities in virtual signaling.
You're less concerned about long dull explanations as to why I'm a better human being, and more upset that the sources you've provided to back up your argument are demonstrably poor. Your reaction here is not surprising.
 

Cuchculan

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Anybody got a pair of matchsticks to help my eyelids open? Or is that against all these Covid laws too because some science expert in outer Mongolia said so. think it is fair to say there is a difference of opinion here and no middle ground. Probably just a middle finger known some of the posters here. Everybody agree to disagree. Even have one looking up African languages. How much worse can this thread actually get?
 

Phillies Phan

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Let’s just agree to disagree at this point. What we all share, and it’s invaluable is the ability to help each other through tough, sometimes excruciating mental anguish as we go through HA episodes. Let’s not ruin that in any way. Everyone of us are important to each other. No one understands us like we understand each other.

Can‘t find an emoji, but offering a peace pipe.
 

Cuchculan

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I couldn't agree more @Phillies Phan . Different people will have different opinions. That is life for you. We have rules / laws here in Ireland surrounding Covid and shopping and public transport. It is not like I don't wear a face covering. i do. Fines for not wearing them are big. Plus shops can refuse you entry. i give people the space they deserve so I am never up on top of them. Because I respect other people. I am not vaccinated. I said I would let others get done first and see how things go. My mother, who I share a house with, is fully vaccinated. That was her wish to get vaccinated. Her choice. We will see what the further holds. As here in Ireland they are trying to force people to get vaccinated. By saying those who get the vaccine can have life return to normal for them. Saying that only stops others getting the vaccine. By way of a challenge to the government. Leaving it as a free choice might have meant more people would have taken up the offer. Not like I do much anyway.
 

Mediumbird02

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I’m vaccinated with the J&J, have been since the day I was allowed to get it. So far so good!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

gadamsgrega2

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I'm not getting that shot... I've heard about way too many side effects from all of them.. None of the shots are FDA approved so anyone taking the shot is basically a lab rat... we don't know the long term side effects of it and how could we when it just became available? I'd rather just take my vitamins and stay athletic...
 

Phillies Phan

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Good luck to you gadam all the best. Got my second Pfizer shot today, and look forward to being permitted to live a normal life before too long. Be it right or wrong, you can best there will be “discrimination” for those who are unvaccinated.
 

Lanchparty7

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I'm not getting that shot... I've heard about way too many side effects from all of them.. None of the shots are FDA approved so anyone taking the shot is basically a lab rat... we don't know the long term side effects of it and how could we when it just became available? I'd rather just take my vitamins and stay athletic...
Agree…this is one of several reasons why I remain unvaccinated.
Good luck to you gadam all the best. Got my second Pfizer shot today, and look forward to being permitted to live a normal life before too long. Be it right or wrong, you can best there will be “discrimination” for those who are unvaccinated.
I accept the risks of me not taking the vax including not being able to do certain things or go certain places. I would like to think most folks who are also declining the vax feel the same. Not getting on a cruise ship or airplane is no loss to me as I would never do either anyway.
 

Fraser

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I'm not getting that shot... I've heard about way too many side effects from all of them.. None of the shots are FDA approved so anyone taking the shot is basically a lab rat... we don't know the long term side effects of it and how could we when it just became available? I'd rather just take my vitamins and stay athletic...
What are the long term side effects of the vaccine? We don't know for sure, but there is a reason to suspect it's nothing. We already know Covid has a bunch of very bad potential side effects from long haulers. Taking vitamins and staying athletic doesn't mean you won't get Covid or that you won't get long term effects from Covid. Many professional athletes are messed up due to Covid. Are you more athletic than them?


Good luck to you gadam all the best. Got my second Pfizer shot today, and look forward to being permitted to live a normal life before too long. Be it right or wrong, you can best there will be “discrimination” for those who are unvaccinated.
Looking forward to when a variant develops in an unvaccinated zone that can get through immunized systems. That's going to be just great.
 

Buship

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Looking forward to when a variant develops in an unvaccinated zone that can get through immunized systems. That's going to be just great.
I don’t think that will come from vaccine hesitancy as much as vaccine inequality. The world desperately needs to increase production and distribution for poorer nations.
 

Cuchculan

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Fact check .org posts again. If people don't want the vaccine for whatever reason that is their choice. Fact. Didn't even need to check that fact. Some might be frightened of it. Fact. Didn't need to check that fact either. Vaccine anxiety does exist. People who have it are not against the use of vaccines. They simply fear the vaccines. Fac. Didn't even need to check that fact. Just anybody could have a fear of anything else. Fact. Didn't even need to check that fact. Is their fear that won't let them go near vaccines. Heck on this forum we read posts from people who fear normal medication. Fact. You can check that one out on the forum. Some fear the side effects of the medication. Fact. Again written on this forum. So if they fear normal medication and the side effects of it, any vaccine will bring a bigger fear to them. This is worth keeping in mind. The vaccines do have side effects. Fact. No need to check that one either. You tell any of these people that there is any type of side effect involved and they will run from that vaccine. Fact. ( Sits back and waits to be hit with a lot of links )
 

Fraser

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Fact check .org posts again. If people don't want the vaccine for whatever reason that is their choice. Fact. Didn't even need to check that fact. Some might be frightened of it. Fact. Didn't need to check that fact either. Vaccine anxiety does exist. People who have it are not against the use of vaccines. They simply fear the vaccines. Fac. Didn't even need to check that fact. Just anybody could have a fear of anything else. Fact. Didn't even need to check that fact. Is their fear that won't let them go near vaccines. Heck on this forum we read posts from people who fear normal medication. Fact. You can check that one out on the forum. Some fear the side effects of the medication. Fact. Again written on this forum. So if they fear normal medication and the side effects of it, any vaccine will bring a bigger fear to them. This is worth keeping in mind. The vaccines do have side effects. Fact. No need to check that one either. You tell any of these people that there is any type of side effect involved and they will run from that vaccine. Fact. ( Sits back and waits to be hit with a lot of links )
Fact: If someone is going to say 2+2 = 5 I'm going to point out that it's 4. Fact: If that's a problem for you, I really don't care.
I don’t think that will come from vaccine hesitancy as much as vaccine inequality. The world desperately needs to increase production and distribution for poorer nations.
Absolutely.
 

Cuchculan

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Looking forward to when a variant develops in an unvaccinated zone that can get through immunized systems. That's going to be just great.
Must be the only person out there looking forward to that. I personally would not wish it on anybody. Vaccinated or unvaccinated.
 

bin_tenn

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I accept the risks of me not taking the vax including not being able to do certain things or go certain places. I would like to think most folks who are also declining the vax feel the same. Not getting on a cruise ship or airplane is no loss to me as I would never do either anyway.
That's me all the way. I was social distancing long before this virus was known, let alone causing a pandemic. I rarely travel, and when I do I drive myself. If some places want to "discriminate" against me for it, oh well, they won't get my business. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all.

As far as masks go, I've never felt some type of way about wearing one. When it was required where I live, I was wearing one while out and about. Now it's optional (supposedly "if you aren't vaccinated you have to wear it", but how can they actually enforce that?) but I still wear one depending on where I'm going. If I'm running into a small store that's never busy, I don't wear one. If I'm in Walmart there's a good chance I'm wearing a mask. The mask mandate doesn't bother me, I can get things done with or without it.
 
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